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May 12th, 07:23 PM   #21
Spud Sabre
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I don't have free will. I get charged $2.95
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May 13th, 05:53 AM   #22
bjb
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Lomax:

I think we should be careful when accepting even the second part of Kenny's argument - the falsity of determinism per se does not entail that events are unpredictable. If, as incompatibilists have in the past (and wrongfully), he is holding that QM means that determinism is false, and explains free will, then it will not be true that determinism's falsity entails the impossibility of prediction with a high degree of accuracy (in many cases). For QM (under the Copenhagen interpretation) entails that events are probabilistic rather than strictly determined - and given anything other than a 50/50 split there will then be a degree of support for a prediction.
 
May 13th, 06:51 AM   #23
Lomax
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Hello Bjb,

Thankyou: good point. I had thought of making it (although you worded it better than I could have anyway); but I thought: it does still follow from "events are probabilistic" that "we cannot be certain of our consequences" (although, I agree: this is not enough to reject consequentialism, particularly given the accuracy of quantum theory to predict events).

I also figured that most people were determinists anyway (apart from those small few who are smart enough to read quantum-mechanical theory but not too smart to misinterpret it), and furthermore, that there are bigger problems with determinism that quantum theory - Hume's probem of induction, for example.

Lomax
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May 13th, 08:56 AM   #24
bjb
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You're right about certainty at least in a logical sense.

Hume's problem of induction itself is not a problem with determinism, it is more that it rests on a view of causes as mere constant conjunctions, which is a non-deterministic view, although Hume is keen to stress that this should make no difference to our practical conduct, and that it is a natural human instinct to 'fill in the blank' so to speak between constantly conjoined events. Hume with the problem of induction attacks the notion that induction has rational support, not that determinism is false. It would probably be more accurate to say that Hume reasons "determinism is false" therefore "there is a problem with induction" than the converse.

By the way, if you happen to like the Eels, and be interested in QM theory, there is an (obviously highly simplified) documentary about E's relationship with his father, who invented the (deterministic) Many-Worlds Interpretation. Its on BBC I-Player for today only, I watched it earlier. here
 
May 13th, 09:07 AM   #25
Lomax
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Hello Bjb,

You are right about Hume's problem. I guess I was only really focusing on its premise: that determinism is false. He rightly observes (as Kant later notes in the Critique) that determinism cannot be empirically tested; so, it is sort of down to us whether we really accept that things have causes and effects. This is why I say it is a greater problem than quantum: because quantum theory does, at least in some sense, accept determinism. It can be used in mechanics to formulate consequences; but if we reject the notion of determinism, we reject the notion of consequences.

Thankyou for the link. I do love Eels, and I am aware that Mister Everett's father co-forumlated the many worlds theory (I think there is a song about his genius father on Electro-Shock Blues). I shall watch the link shortly.

Lomax
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May 14th, 11:06 PM   #26
verilitas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genome
I don't care about your linguistic tricks, human beings have free will!

Socrates was forced to drink hemlock because he made the weaker argument seam stronger. Such is the case here!
Since we have free will would you mind telling me why incarceration, other forms of punishment, and extensive incentives are still used?
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Last edited by verilitas : May 14th at 11:10 PM.
 
July 19th, 05:10 PM   #27
Jcaouette08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verilitas
Since we have free will would you mind telling me why incarceration, other forms of punishment, and extensive incentives are still used?


Incarceration and any form of punishment isn't proof or disproof of the existance of free will. Free will deals with the theory in a completely different way. Are we able to make decisions or are the decisions that we make pre-determined?

I think that your asking the question, do we have a free society? Apples and Oranges here, I do agree with you that we do not have a free society, but I do think that we have free will, though I have heard great arguments from both sides.
 


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